Unknown German Armoured Vehicle

Tanks & Armored Vehicles

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Re: Unknown German Armoured Vehicle

Beitragvon don_haesi_78 » 18/10/2016, 21:38

Hi Panzerjäger,

das meine ich ja mit Wissensaustausch, selbst die ganzen Autoren die die Bücher usw, geschrieben haben auf die wir uns heute berufen, geben unterschiedlichste "Herkünfte" von Waffensystemen an, wie sie entstanden, sich weiter entwickelt haben usw. deshalb, immer her mit Infos, die man dann miteinander "vergleichen" kann, ich erhebe keinen Anspruch drauf Recht zu haben mit meinen aussagen ;)
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Re: Unknown German Armoured Vehicle

Beitragvon Alanmccoubrey » 18/10/2016, 22:29

What is missing from the photographs is the fact that the superstructure of the lengthened Panzer II was used on the conversion, suggesting that it was done by either 707 or 708 and not 200.
Alan
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Re: Unknown German Armoured Vehicle

Beitragvon don_haesi_78 » 19/10/2016, 08:03

which photo do you mean? The tricky part about german tank types or more correctly their naming like in this case "Bison" or "Bison II" were mostely not "fabricated" Tanks, they were mostly conversions from over-produced track-sections like you see on the photos above, there is the "Panzer II" Chassis with another roadwheel, but there are also lorraine-chassis, russian, czech, or whatever the Werhmacht could get their hands on, and were then modified to another purpose, just imagine, that there would be a factory in germany who would produce "Bisons" like the other Factories who produced Panzer III or IV´s , why are they always "small" numbers of these Vehicles, mainly combined by the armament(and not even this is "safe" to say, because a 152mm russian Howitzer was also used or a french 152mm, and so on) For example, the Photo where you see the assamblance of the "Sturmpanzer´s" Main Gun, you can clearly see, that the tRack section is from a Panzer III(six medium Road wheels), while in the Photos above it is clear to see that it´s a modified Panzer II Chassis(Track-geometry, Roadwheels, Idler, etc). The Topic "Naming german Tanks" is not as easy as it looks, because the "Factory Tanks" Like the P I-VI all got "models", just like the "MK" in englisch military tradition. If you now look at A Panzer III (A) and a Panzer III(F) it´s not "easy" to find some similarities, because the "design" evolved, the Mark I ( or german "Ausführung A") was the "prototype", or the First evolution of the design "Panzer XY". But this design evolved, and the troops of the Wehrmacht "evolved" to new threats, or new combat-environment, like they did with their equipment. The "first" Bison may be build on a stretched Panzer II chassis, because the Panzer II was simply outdated for combat-roles(like afterwards the Panzer IIi who were used to build the "cheap" but effective Stug´s.Tto be exactly the Panzer I an II were "driving school"_Tanks, and should proof the concept of what was later called "Blitzkrieg", they were mainly used for Scouting or reconnisance Purposes, but they were "outdated" as the war startet, and the germans were always keen on reusing something. Look at the great amounts of Field artillery, or Flak ,Trucks, that they used after Dünkirchen, it was not uncommon to have a 40mm Bofors FLak in a german FLak regiment, just because they had them captured and germans hate to waste something, which you can use, if you have nothing else(and that was the case since the first days of Embargo etc..) so my theory is, that all these "Scrap" Tanks- like the Bison, Marder/ Grille a.s.o. were Designs who were needed by the troops, but not provided by the authorities above, whose job it would have been to give such weaponry to the troops. There are a lot of examples of heavily modified "captured" Equipment in german use, which was modified to do a specific role on the battlefield. And the germans were highly adaptable at these times, they had a lot of "Conquered" Military equipment, and if you have to think twice if you use this "scrap" to forge something "better", then you get something like these funny tanks, like the Bison, the Marder, Grille, and so one. The germans adapted a lot of tactics and even design from thier opponements on the battlefield, for example the Panthers hull was "russian" design, sloped armor, no flat surfaces like P I- P V, so i think this "namecalling" is not as quiet as "simple" as it may look :(

sorry for my english, but i hope you could imagine what i would like to say^^
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Re: Unknown German Armoured Vehicle

Beitragvon don_haesi_78 » 19/10/2016, 08:26

I´d like to give you another example, the famous "Hetzer" was originally a Czech Tank. With the occupation of the Czech Republic(I know, i know, the Name was different at hthe time, but i was born 1978, and in school no one told me the correct english word for the countries name). The german Troops captured a lot of the Panzer 38(t) and Panzer 35(t) (the "t" stands for tschechoslowakisch"czech", or the "f" was for "französisch"( french), and the "r" stood for"russisch" (russian) captured equipment in german use). The 38(t) had a 3,7cm Cannon, bolted Armor and the german troops really really liked the tracks of this tank, because he was much more mobile and was better performing in cross-country than the tracks of the P I- P IV to this time. So the germans used the Panzer 35 and 38(t) as long as they performed "well" on the battlefield, but as they met the T34 and KV-1 in Russia, or the Mathilda or even the Somua in france, it was clearly visual, that these tanks were not better performing than the "standard" tanks , or even much worse(the bolted on armor was a nightmare, because the bolts used to behave like shotgun-shells inside the Tank, when it was hit and NOT penetrated), but the germans were highly surprised by the simple and maintenance -friendly Track section, and so they stopped the Production of 38 (t)s at skoda, and used produced 38(t) Track sections and mounted a 7,62 high velocity- multi purpose gun on top (to be precisely it was the Feldkanone 76,2mm (r) or "Ratschbumm") who were captured in large numbers(and with large amounts of ammunition!) in the first month of the Operation Barbarossa.They called it "Marder", but the troops who were given these "tankhunters" to, did not like the high Silhouette of this Tank, and it was not easy to camouflage this vehicle, so they "re-designed" the concept of "tankhunters" and did change a whole lot until it resulted in the HEtzer, which had the exactly same Track section as the P 38(t), had no turret, a low silhouette and a powerful 7,5cm PAK. It was a constand evolution in Tank developement, and self propeeled Guns and Artillery also, and i believe that at this time in the war they had no time for "perfection", they had to use what they had in their hands to "win" the war and so they mixed up a lot of many different types of armor and armament and were "learning by doing". The naming was secondary, just as an example, every German Tank had an official Name (Sonderkraftfahrzeug XY or Sd.Kfz.XY) Than the "Modelname" like Panzer XY and than a "nickname" like "TIGER, BISON, a.s.o and the nicknames were "modern" after germany invented the Panzer V aka TIGER, before this, no one called a Panzer III something else than a Panzer III, and so my theory is, that the "Names" of the tanks were mostly "after-war", because i could never find a letter from my grandfather who served as an radio operator in the 10.Pz-Div. in Afrika where he called something a "bison" they referred to them as "Sturmartillerie" or, if they were in the mood 152mm Feldgeschütz auf Panzer II(for example)
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Re: Unknown German Armoured Vehicle

Beitragvon Alanmccoubrey » 19/10/2016, 10:27

I was referring to the photograph of the gun being lifted into the Panzer III by crane. If you look at the photographs of the completed conversion you will see that the superstructure surrounding the fighting compartment is in fact that of the Panzer II version. This indicates that the men doing the conversion had access to the disabled Panzer II version and that would be the unit who owned it in the first place. Further evidence that the conversion was not carried out by Schützen Regiment 200 is the fact that this Regiment did not have a sIG Kompanie on strength so would have had the "acquire" the gun, disabled Panzer II(sfl) and Panzer III from other units just to carry out the work.
Alan
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Re: Unknown German Armoured Vehicle

Beitragvon don_haesi_78 » 22/10/2016, 09:11

I had to read your Text a little more than average, because i´m a little bit rusted with my english, but now i think i know what you meant.

And of course, you are right, i did never say that i have an "100%" Evidence for my opinion about the modification or the developement of those gun carrieres , but i was serving in the Bundeswehr as an electro-mechanic NCO in the 6.Instandsetzungskompanie 131 and i know, how fast some ideas grow, if there is a shortage of spare parts or whatever you have to adapt on a vehicle to protect it better or getting better mine protection, for example. And as i mentioned a little bit earlyier, espacially this kind of tank with the "Name" Bison was never officially mentioned in any publication that i read about german Tanks or World war II, just look to the Pics of the Model-Kits, and how different those Tanks are to each other, but they share the same Name, and so I used my Brain a little and looked a little bit closer and there are a lot of "VK-Tanks" Who share the same Characteristics with this Bison(with no gun shield around the Barrel) was carriing an 10,5 LfH when it was tested, so i assumed, that those Tanks were Testet and after that modified to fit the "real" purpose( A designer wants this, wants that, but if you have to build it, you have to look what you got, to produce this Tank) And there were al lot of french or Russian Field-Howitzers (both 152mm) who could "technically" be mounted instead of the 10,5 cm LfH. You killed two cats with one stone:
1.) The caliber for the artillery-units, fitted with the 10,5cm LfH, stayed the same, no new ammunition, enough "spare" parts, and you did not need to change anything in the Production Lines in Germany or in the occupied Countries, they could produce the 10,5cm Grenade, and did not have to "change" the whole production to 152mm Ammunition(Which were captured in France or Russia, and even Poland in large ammounts. It´s more efficient, so it fits perfect for me

2.) You got rid of the Captured Equipment, it is much easier if you have to train 1 Gunner on a Tank, than to train 5 or more Soldiers of the artillery, the casings, the grenades, everything was placed inside the fighting compartment, the gunner just had to watch the elevation, other "targeting" was done by the driver and the commander, so it was "cheaper" for Nazi-Germany, and in those Times the germans lost a whole lot of ressources every day, through bomb-raids, Naval Attacks and so on, they had to "concentrate" their ressources for max efficiency, and the german Army(not the Luftwaffe, that is a complete different thing^^) was very very efficient in the beginning, when they re-used a lot of captured equipment, like the P38(t) or Matildas, Stuarts and so on, which the got from the Brits. Nad you got also rid of the ammunition, and in those "small" numbers in which the Germans build those Tanks, the Ammunition would never been shot till 1945^^
And another "advantage" those 152mm Shells could not been used by the russians who "theoretically" re use the captured equipment against the german troops(no russian Tanks or Euipment ever went to Africa). France was defeated, and no one else used the french 152mm Howitzer, maybe some Colonial Troops, but i don´t know for sure.

My Theory on this self Propelled Gun is, that it is only a "step" in a longer evolution of Tank Hunters, or Self propelled Guns that germany "invented" later on in the war, and was just thrown to the front, because everything else was fighting in Russia or Africa or the baltic states. But that´s just my theory, and i like to discuss this topic with everyone who can give me better input ;)

Its like the evolution of british tanks, the Bison was the MK I, Sturmtiger was MK V, if you know what i want to say, and i don´t think that the "Name" Bison is correct eather, because the Namecalling of Tanks started with the Tiger, no other Equipment before this tank was"Named" in the Wehrmacht.
Regards, Mirko
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Re: Unknown German Armoured Vehicle

Beitragvon landser162 » 15/11/2019, 04:10

Hallo leute :D; mehr folgt....................................

15cm sIG 33 L/11(Sf) auf Fahrgestell Panzerkampfwagen III Ausf.H (Sf)

Quelle: https://www.ebay.de/itm/I42-Sturmpanzer ... rmvSB=true

Gruße. Raúl M 8).
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